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	<title>Comments on: Why global regularity for Navier-Stokes is hard</title>
	<atom:link href="http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/</link>
	<description>Updates on my research and expository papers, discussion of open problems, and other maths-related topics.  By Terence Tao</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Claes Johnson</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31712</link>
		<dc:creator>Claes Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31712</guid>
		<description>To Anonymous:

You touch an essential point: There is a big difference between
100 and 10^100 = googol. If you do not make this distinction
in a quantitative analysis, it is not an analysis. I am surprised
to see that some (pure) mathematicans do not make this distinction,
and I wonder what mathematical tradition it can reflect.

Claes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Anonymous:</p>
<p>You touch an essential point: There is a big difference between<br />
100 and 10^100 = googol. If you do not make this distinction<br />
in a quantitative analysis, it is not an analysis. I am surprised<br />
to see that some (pure) mathematicans do not make this distinction,<br />
and I wonder what mathematical tradition it can reflect.</p>
<p>Claes</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31710</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31710</guid>
		<description>Re the above: an amusing question occurs to me for the math folks here (I'm just a computer guy).  What happens if someone turns in a proof of NS global stability, that is rigorous but depends on something like a large cardinal axiom?  Is that even imaginable, mathematically speaking?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the above: an amusing question occurs to me for the math folks here (I&#8217;m just a computer guy).  What happens if someone turns in a proof of NS global stability, that is rigorous but depends on something like a large cardinal axiom?  Is that even imaginable, mathematically speaking?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31708</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31708</guid>
		<description>Claes, take a look at [[Goodstein's theorem]] in Wikipedia for how fast a function can grow and still be considered bounded in a mathematical sense.  Double exponential is not bad at all.  Triple or quadruple or 57-times-iterated exponential is only a little bit worse.  Then you get functions like Ackermann's, which are worse than n-times-iterated exponential for arbitrary large n, but for which you can still write down an formula in terms of induction on more than one variable.  And then there are functions that grow so fast that no expression can even be written down--one can only prove indirectly that they are still finite.  Goodstein's theorem says that starting with any n, if you iterate a certain calculation for enough steps you'll eventually reach zero.  But it turns out (proved by Kirby and Paris) that as a function of n, the number of steps before you hit zero is so large, that it's impossible to write down a formula for it.  Yet that it's always finite (the process never goes on without bound) is a remarkable fact of pure mathematics, even though even for values as small as n=4, f(n) could not be written down as a decimal number if you could engrave a billion digits on each electron in the physical universe.

A more practical example: suppose you have a computer program with array references like a[x*y + z].  It is provably impossible in general for a compiler to tell without running the program whether there will ever be a subscript-out-of-range error.  Suppose instead the references are like a[37*y++19*z+3*w]--that is, you never multiply two variables together in a subscript, you can only add them or multiply by constants.  Then compile time checking is possible (this is called Presberger arithmetic).  The running time formula is a tower of iterated exponentials in the size of the expressions, which is absolutely intractable in the worst case, but it's a remarkable theoretical result that it's decidable at all.  And it turns out that for most real practical cases, the worst case exponential tower is avoided.  And even without that, the decidability is of interest to pure mathematicians.  Maybe they're not of interest to anyone else, but pure mathematicians went into that field precisely because they're into that sort of thing.  It's not up to anyone else to talk them out of it.

Who knows, maybe global stability will involve growth functions like that.  If so, the Clay math people want to know about it.  In a physical sense it's as bad as a singularity but from a pure math point of view it's not the same at all.  And as Terence and others have said, reformulations of the problem may be very interesting from a physics perspective, but the pure math question posed as a Clay problem is very specific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Claes, take a look at [[Goodstein's theorem]] in Wikipedia for how fast a function can grow and still be considered bounded in a mathematical sense.  Double exponential is not bad at all.  Triple or quadruple or 57-times-iterated exponential is only a little bit worse.  Then you get functions like Ackermann&#8217;s, which are worse than n-times-iterated exponential for arbitrary large n, but for which you can still write down an formula in terms of induction on more than one variable.  And then there are functions that grow so fast that no expression can even be written down&#8211;one can only prove indirectly that they are still finite.  Goodstein&#8217;s theorem says that starting with any n, if you iterate a certain calculation for enough steps you&#8217;ll eventually reach zero.  But it turns out (proved by Kirby and Paris) that as a function of n, the number of steps before you hit zero is so large, that it&#8217;s impossible to write down a formula for it.  Yet that it&#8217;s always finite (the process never goes on without bound) is a remarkable fact of pure mathematics, even though even for values as small as n=4, f(n) could not be written down as a decimal number if you could engrave a billion digits on each electron in the physical universe.</p>
<p>A more practical example: suppose you have a computer program with array references like a[x*y + z].  It is provably impossible in general for a compiler to tell without running the program whether there will ever be a subscript-out-of-range error.  Suppose instead the references are like a[37*y++19*z+3*w]&#8211;that is, you never multiply two variables together in a subscript, you can only add them or multiply by constants.  Then compile time checking is possible (this is called Presberger arithmetic).  The running time formula is a tower of iterated exponentials in the size of the expressions, which is absolutely intractable in the worst case, but it&#8217;s a remarkable theoretical result that it&#8217;s decidable at all.  And it turns out that for most real practical cases, the worst case exponential tower is avoided.  And even without that, the decidability is of interest to pure mathematicians.  Maybe they&#8217;re not of interest to anyone else, but pure mathematicians went into that field precisely because they&#8217;re into that sort of thing.  It&#8217;s not up to anyone else to talk them out of it.</p>
<p>Who knows, maybe global stability will involve growth functions like that.  If so, the Clay math people want to know about it.  In a physical sense it&#8217;s as bad as a singularity but from a pure math point of view it&#8217;s not the same at all.  And as Terence and others have said, reformulations of the problem may be very interesting from a physics perspective, but the pure math question posed as a Clay problem is very specific.</p>
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		<title>By: Claes Johnson</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31698</link>
		<dc:creator>Claes Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31698</guid>
		<description>To Anonymous 2:

You are right that an unstable numerical scheme for a stable problem
can give artifacts. But our computational Euler solution is validated
by a posteriori output error estimation by Euler residuals multiplied
by stability factors obtained by solving dual linearized problems.
A computed Euler solution is thus a representative solution and
not an artifact. Since the computed solution shows blowup and
is representative, there is blowup.

Correspondence (with e.g. Terence) on the blowup problem is published on 
http://www.nada.kth.se/~jhoffman/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.Clay

Claes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Anonymous 2:</p>
<p>You are right that an unstable numerical scheme for a stable problem<br />
can give artifacts. But our computational Euler solution is validated<br />
by a posteriori output error estimation by Euler residuals multiplied<br />
by stability factors obtained by solving dual linearized problems.<br />
A computed Euler solution is thus a representative solution and<br />
not an artifact. Since the computed solution shows blowup and<br />
is representative, there is blowup.</p>
<p>Correspondence (with e.g. Terence) on the blowup problem is published on<br />
<a href="http://www.nada.kth.se/~jhoffman/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.Clay" rel="nofollow">http://www.nada.kth.se/~jhoffman/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.Clay</a></p>
<p>Claes</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31685</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31685</guid>
		<description>Claes,

The issue is that the NS equation is highly numerically unstable, so simulations showing blow up tell us very little; the blow up may be an artifact of the simulation rather than an indication that NS actually blows up.

[different anonymous from 7:20pm above]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Claes,</p>
<p>The issue is that the NS equation is highly numerically unstable, so simulations showing blow up tell us very little; the blow up may be an artifact of the simulation rather than an indication that NS actually blows up.</p>
<p>[different anonymous from 7:20pm above]</p>
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		<title>By: Claes Johnson</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31377</link>
		<dc:creator>Claes Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31377</guid>
		<description>To Anonymous:

This discussion is important. I hope e.g. Terence will take part.
You express a common misconception, addressed in the article, that
computational evidence is not mathematical evidence. 
The central concepts are wellposedness and turbulence, and in this 
context a computational solution is as much a solution as anything.
Please read the article with an open mind. Looking forward to 
your comments.

Claes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Anonymous:</p>
<p>This discussion is important. I hope e.g. Terence will take part.<br />
You express a common misconception, addressed in the article, that<br />
computational evidence is not mathematical evidence.<br />
The central concepts are wellposedness and turbulence, and in this<br />
context a computational solution is as much a solution as anything.<br />
Please read the article with an open mind. Looking forward to<br />
your comments.</p>
<p>Claes</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31373</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31373</guid>
		<description>To Claes Johnson

I don't think this paper is called "resolution"... it is just some numerical evidence. For incompressible Euler, finite time blow-up or not, has been a long time controversial question. Both sides have numerical "evidence"...

For incompressible Navier-Stokes, physicists tend to believe no finite time blow-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Claes Johnson</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this paper is called &#8220;resolution&#8221;&#8230; it is just some numerical evidence. For incompressible Euler, finite time blow-up or not, has been a long time controversial question. Both sides have numerical &#8220;evidence&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>For incompressible Navier-Stokes, physicists tend to believe no finite time blow-up.</p>
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		<title>By: Claes Johnson</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31363</link>
		<dc:creator>Claes Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31363</guid>
		<description>A resolution of the Clay Navier-Stokes problem is proposed in the article
Blowup of Incompressible Euler Solutions, published online July 19 2008
in BIT Numerical Mathematics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A resolution of the Clay Navier-Stokes problem is proposed in the article<br />
Blowup of Incompressible Euler Solutions, published online July 19 2008<br />
in BIT Numerical Mathematics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Global existence and uniqueness results for weak solutions of the focusing mass-critical non-linear Schrödinger equation &#171; What&#8217;s new</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31306</link>
		<dc:creator>Global existence and uniqueness results for weak solutions of the focusing mass-critical non-linear Schrödinger equation &#171; What&#8217;s new</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31306</guid>
		<description>[...] smooth solutions to the Navier-Stokes equation is one of the Clay Millennium problems that I have blogged about before, but global existence of weak solutions is quite easy with today&#8217;s technology and was first [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] smooth solutions to the Navier-Stokes equation is one of the Clay Millennium problems that I have blogged about before, but global existence of weak solutions is quite easy with today&#8217;s technology and was first [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31223</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/why-global-regularity-for-navier-stokes-is-hard/#comment-31223</guid>
		<description>Thanks. I'll have a look at both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. I&#8217;ll have a look at both.</p>
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